Pent Up Theology

The Ted Haggard situation brings up a theological sticking point for me, one that rises to the surface from time to time like a chronically imbedded splinter.

Maybe you can be my tweezers and clear things up for me once and for all. I’m inviting you to give it a shot.

My problem is about forgiveness, particularly the type that is so readily extended to someone who has “repented” after just getting caught.

Do you believe (Christians and non-Christians welcome to respond, please!) that you are required to/should forgive everyone who asks, always, under every circumstance? And what does that look like?

Abused wives do it all the time, I guess. For some of them, I suppose their understanding of “I forgive you” includes a belief that when the abuser says “I promise I’ll never hurt you again!” he really means it.

If someone you loved and trusted had a very bad track record of actually changing after repeated episodes of getting caught, would you keep extending forgiveness regardless of the “truth” of his repentance?

Would the type of forgiveness you extend ever give you the option of disqualifying that person from your circle of friends, marriage, church?

In other words, is forgiveness conditional?

Posted by Katy on 11/07/06 at 01:56 PM

Fallible Comments...

It helps me to distinguish forgiveness from trust. I can forgive someone freely, right away, as directed by scripture. However, even after that act of forgiveness I do not have to trust that person until they have proven themselves trustworthy. Then my actions of exclusion or separation or disqualification may be based upon there not being the requisite level of trust. However, I always have to keep continually testing my heart to make sure that I really did forgive. It is so much harder for me to forgive someone than to simply renew my trust in them.
Posted by Craig on 11/07/06 at 03:43 PM
I really think that as limited humans, we can only come so far in complete and total forgiveness. That's what I think with Craig's opinion, which I completely agree with, that I can say I forgive, and continually check my heart for any malice against a person or a group, but I'm not perfect. I can't forget. That doesn't mean I use the offense as a tool against the person/group, but there are new boundaries now.

Am I talking in circles? I appreciate the post very much. We're still only created beings, separated by sinful nature from God's perfect heart.
Posted by Tess on 11/07/06 at 04:11 PM
I believe in forgiveness, regardless of, or in spite of, the actions of the person you are forgiving. I also believe in responsibility, accountability, and the biblical act of judging those in authority. I posted a couple of comments on Mick's blog yesterday on that, and something on my own blog.

Anyway, I believe that forgiveness doesn't have to do with anything but forgiving. Whether you continue to associate with that person, or whether they repent of something is a totally separate issue. Like if a husband cheats on his wife, she may forgive him, but that doesn't automatically mean that they will be reconciled.
Posted by Suzan on 11/07/06 at 04:12 PM
These are two different issues: forgiveness and reconciliation.

Forgiveness is an act by one person who chooses to forgive someone who has offended her or sinned against her. It does not necessarily involve the other person.

However, reconciliation (a beautiful, if not rare, thing) involves two people who are honest, broken, repentant, humble and willing to own their own stuff.

I can forgive someone who sinned against me, but that does not mean reconciliation will occur. I cannot control the actions or attitudes of that person. If he continues to hurt me, then we cannot be reconciled.

At that point, it is wise to protect myself from further harm by not entering into relationship.

This has taken me years to figure out.

I used to equate forgiveness with reconciliation, so that if I didn't relate well to someone who continually hurt me, I worried that I hadn't forgiven. Now I know that's a fallacy. I can forgive, but the relationship depends not only my forgiveness, but also on the response of the person who sinned against me.

Clear as mud?
Posted by relevantgirl on 11/07/06 at 04:43 PM
So, have all of you been taught (in church) that forgiveness is something we do for ourselves, because keeping the offending party "trapped" in the web of our own unforgiveness ultimately only hurts us?

On another site this morning, a commenter said that God only forgives when the confessor has truly repented (because He knows the sinner's heart), but that we mortals are obligated to forgive all offenses against us (because we cannot know the other's heart).

My quandary is how hypocritical I feel when I extend forgiveness to someone who seems to be confessing only because they got caught in the act.

Somehow, then, my forgiveness seems as superficial as their "confession."

You all raise excellent points and I appreciate them. A lot to think about, and to apply to my own heart's condition. Thank you.
Posted by Katy on 11/07/06 at 05:08 PM
Katy, I believe that the Bible teaches we are to forgive (even before we are asked to forgive, even if the person isn't truly repentant), that forgiveness is a decision, an act of will, and not a feeling. Therefore, we forgive in obedience to Christ, not as a result of the other party's actions or words.

That said, God has plenty to say about restoring a brother to the body of Christ. It isn't just a "we forgive you, man" and everybody is hunky-dory. There are biblical steps of restoration that must be followed.

And as someone else said, forgiveness and trust are not the same thing. We can forgive, as an act of will, but trust is earned and that takes time.

Robin
Posted by Robin Lee Hatcher on 11/07/06 at 06:34 PM
I was just talking about this with a friend two days ago. He says that there is a type of forgiveness that does not involve reconciliation. For example, in the case of an abused wife, she can forgive and yet not reconcile with her abusive husband. Because if she reconciles with him, her safety will be compromised. But she must forgive because if she continues to hold his actions against him, she will allow fear and bitterness to rule her life. My friend said, "She forgives, but maintains her boundaries, for the sake of safety."

As I see it, our forgiveness is not dependent on the other person's repentance. God said that if we don't forgive, our Heavenly Father won't forgive us either! He never said anything about it being okay if the other fellow wasn't genuinely sorry or didn't change. I've heard it said that you know you have forgiven when the memories no longer sting or provoke anger. I think it's possible to forgive the person, as in not hold anything against him, yet not trust him anymore and not give him any other opportunities to hurt you.
Posted by Sunflower on 11/07/06 at 06:57 PM
i often have asked myself the question about someone who gets caught in the act and apologizes/asks forgiveness - are they for real or just sorry they got caught? and now, what is my response supposed to be? i know in my head that Jesus says forgive 70x7...in other words, don't stop forgiving. but living that out in reality when emotion and relationships are involved... much more difficult. i appreciate this post and the ensuing comments. so many of these answers have really helped me in thinking through this. thank you.
Posted by joshua on 11/07/06 at 07:35 PM
Well, I'm not sure I have much to add here, I think we're all on the same theological page. Katy, as you know, this is an issue I've personally been dealing with over ...geez..has it been a month? Anyway, I do believe God desires us to be Christ-like in all we do, therefore we forgive, no matter the sin. I can't find it in scripture where God says, "Forgive and Forget." Maybe it's there.
I do believe forgiving is more for our sake than for the sake of the forgiven. Why carry that burden of anger?
The word faith is really translated poorly from the original biblical writings...it really does...at least to me...translate closer to "trust."

So do I forgive and trust...in God...to work out the rest. Yes, I do that all time, most willingly.

Forgive and forget...and I'd be forgetting God.

I have to let God work in His time, not in mine.

Michael 1 of 37 or something :)
Posted by Michael Main on 11/07/06 at 09:30 PM
I could forgive someone for hitting me with their truck but I won't stand in front of the truck again.
Posted by Sabine on 11/07/06 at 10:18 PM
Wow Katy,
You sure said something sweet about me on Lisa's blog. Thanks!!!!

I love Mary's comment. (Relevant Girl) That particular issue is what I've struggled with the most. Thank God I'm learning that forgiveness does not mean you have to give the offender full re-entrance to your heart when they continue to wound it.

But--continued forgiveness is the only way to survive. Even when the other person sees no need to change and repeatedly hurts you, you're only hurting yourself to hang onto the pain and anger.

In this particular situation with Haggard, I'm really grieving for the man. I have no doubt but that what he did was NOT something he wanted to do. Sin is like that. It pulls at us. In our heart we don't want to do it. In our mind we know it is wrong and don't want to do it. But sometimes we lose. (even Paul struggled with this, see Romans 6)

I have a friend who had similar struggles. His wife stuck it out with him while he got a lot of help with his addictions and a lot of healing from the wounds of his past. He is now a wonderful husband and father. I'm so impressed with both of them and the way they fought for healing and love through a lot of incredible pain.

I'm glad his wife believed him when he said he was sorry. I'm glad she forgave him and helped him become the man he is today. (She is also a much stronger/beautiful woman now. Grew a lot through the pain.)

I'm not saying every time we sin we are truly repentant, nor am I saying every wife has to stick with a husband even when they are unfaithful. I think there is a difference between a selfish desire to hold onto bad behavior and the person who blows it even as he/she wishes he/she didn't.
Posted by Paula on 11/08/06 at 07:50 PM
Lots of great comments here. I agree that we forgive regardless of the other person's attitude or confession. If for no other reason, we do this in obedience to God's command. Of course He commands it for good reasons. It not only rids our own souls of the festering poison of bitterness, but I also believe it releases the power of God to work in the other person's life.

One time in my life I simply had no power to forgive. I wanted to, but hate and anger suffocated me. I begged God to help me forgive. One day I was explaining God's sovereignty to my daughter and I realized I was speaking to myself as well. That was the beginning of healing and forgiveness, and I knew it was real when I could think of the person I'd struggled to forgive and feel no hatred or anger or blame.

Thank God, forgiveness has nothing to do with the worthiness of the one forgiven. If it did, we'd all be going to hell.
Posted by Jeanne Damoff on 11/09/06 at 03:29 AM
You are all insightful and inspirational. Thank you! I am actually much better at forgiving than asking for forgiveness. I am quick to apologize, but I always hesitate to ask forgiveness of someone if I'm pretty sure tomorrow, I may commit the same offense. It seems like an insult to the other person's intelligence or something.

Obviously, I need some work in this area. I commit plenty of sins, so no doubt will have many occasions to practice these skills. Sheesh.

Love you guys!!!
Posted by Katy on 11/10/06 at 08:18 PM
Well, this is an issue I have been dealing with for over 20 years. And I have been doing a lot of forgiving for the past 18 of those years. The problem is - you don't forgive once and it's over. Repercussions of a sin against you may continue for a lifetime. Every time I remember that my life is not what it was meant to have been, I have to forgive all over again. Having said that, restitution would go a long ways with getting me past this stage.
Posted by alison on 11/17/06 at 11:25 PM

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Personal blog of christian writer & fallible mom Katy McKenna Raymond in Kansas City, Missouri Katy is represented by Greg Johnson at WordServe Literary Read more Katy at LateBoomer.net Follow Katy on Twitter Follow Katy on Facebook 123 Recent Posts Try Becoming Brenda Starr Off Beat Scattered That’s It So I’ve Finally Signed With An Agent. Now What? The Spoon Sciatica Sweetheart A Woman’s Train of Thought Has No Caboose However much we own, we are all still living on borrowed time After all, when restaurants shrink portions, they don’t shrink prices. As with everything in life, balance is key. Slow down, you move too fast… Yeah, I know. I have issues. Search Advanced Search Syndicate Login E me at katy @ ngenius.com	Pent Up Theology The Ted Haggard situation brings up a theological sticking point for me, one that rises to the surface from time to time like a chronically imbedded splinter. Maybe you can be my tweezers and clear things up for me once and for all. I’m inviting you to give it a shot. My problem is about forgiveness, particularly the type that is so readily extended to someone who has “repented” after just getting caught. Do you believe (Christians and non-Christians welcome to respond, please!) that you are required to/should forgive everyone who asks, always, under every circumstance? And what does that look like? Abused wives do it all the time, I guess. For some of them, I suppose their understanding of “I forgive you” includes a belief that when the abuser says “I promise I’ll never hurt you again!” he really means it. If someone you loved and trusted had a very bad track record of actually changing after repeated episodes of getting caught, would you keep extending forgiveness regardless of the “truth” of his repentance? Would the type of forgiveness you extend ever give you the option of disqualifying that person from your circle of friends, marriage, church? In other words, is forgiveness conditional? Posted by Katy on 11/07/06 at 01:56 PM Fallible Comments... It helps me to distinguish forgiveness from trust. I can forgive someone freely, right away, as directed by scripture. However, even after that act of forgiveness I do not have to trust that person until they have proven themselves trustworthy. Then my actions of exclusion or separation or disqualification may be based upon there not being the requisite level of trust. However, I always have to keep continually testing my heart to make sure that I really did forgive. It is so much harder for me to forgive someone than to simply renew my trust in them. Posted by Craig on 11/07/06 at 03:43 PM I really think that as limited humans, we can only come so far in complete and total forgiveness. That's what I think with Craig's opinion, which I completely agree with, that I can say I forgive, and continually check my heart for any malice against a person or a group, but I'm not perfect. I can't forget. That doesn't mean I use the offense as a tool against the person/group, but there are new boundaries now. Am I talking in circles? I appreciate the post very much. We're still only created beings, separated by sinful nature from God's perfect heart. Posted by Tess on 11/07/06 at 04:11 PM I believe in forgiveness, regardless of, or in spite of, the actions of the person you are forgiving. I also believe in responsibility, accountability, and the biblical act of judging those in authority. I posted a couple of comments on Mick's blog yesterday on that, and something on my own blog. Anyway, I believe that forgiveness doesn't have to do with anything but forgiving. Whether you continue to associate with that person, or whether they repent of something is a totally separate issue. Like if a husband cheats on his wife, she may forgive him, but that doesn't automatically mean that they will be reconciled. Posted by Suzan on 11/07/06 at 04:12 PM These are two different issues: forgiveness and reconciliation. Forgiveness is an act by one person who chooses to forgive someone who has offended her or sinned against her. It does not necessarily involve the other person. However, reconciliation (a beautiful, if not rare, thing) involves two people who are honest, broken, repentant, humble and willing to own their own stuff. I can forgive someone who sinned against me, but that does not mean reconciliation will occur. I cannot control the actions or attitudes of that person. If he continues to hurt me, then we cannot be reconciled. At that point, it is wise to protect myself from further harm by not entering into relationship. This has taken me years to figure out. I used to equate forgiveness with reconciliation, so that if I didn't relate well to someone who continually hurt me, I worried that I hadn't forgiven. Now I know that's a fallacy. I can forgive, but the relationship depends not only my forgiveness, but also on the response of the person who sinned against me. Clear as mud? Posted by relevantgirl on 11/07/06 at 04:43 PM So, have all of you been taught (in church) that forgiveness is something we do for ourselves, because keeping the offending party "trapped" in the web of our own unforgiveness ultimately only hurts us? On another site this morning, a commenter said that God only forgives when the confessor has truly repented (because He knows the sinner's heart), but that we mortals are obligated to forgive all offenses against us (because we cannot know the other's heart). My quandary is how hypocritical I feel when I extend forgiveness to someone who seems to be confessing only because they got caught in the act. Somehow, then, my forgiveness seems as superficial as their "confession." You all raise excellent points and I appreciate them. A lot to think about, and to apply to my own heart's condition. Thank you. Posted by Katy on 11/07/06 at 05:08 PM Katy, I believe that the Bible teaches we are to forgive (even before we are asked to forgive, even if the person isn't truly repentant), that forgiveness is a decision, an act of will, and not a feeling. Therefore, we forgive in obedience to Christ, not as a result of the other party's actions or words. That said, God has plenty to say about restoring a brother to the body of Christ. It isn't just a "we forgive you, man" and everybody is hunky-dory. There are biblical steps of restoration that must be followed. And as someone else said, forgiveness and trust are not the same thing. We can forgive, as an act of will, but trust is earned and that takes time. Robin Posted by Robin Lee Hatcher on 11/07/06 at 06:34 PM I was just talking about this with a friend two days ago. He says that there is a type of forgiveness that does not involve reconciliation. For example, in the case of an abused wife, she can forgive and yet not reconcile with her abusive husband. Because if she reconciles with him, her safety will be compromised. But she must forgive because if she continues to hold his actions against him, she will allow fear and bitterness to rule her life. My friend said, "She forgives, but maintains her boundaries, for the sake of safety." As I see it, our forgiveness is not dependent on the other person's repentance. God said that if we don't forgive, our Heavenly Father won't forgive us either! He never said anything about it being okay if the other fellow wasn't genuinely sorry or didn't change. I've heard it said that you know you have forgiven when the memories no longer sting or provoke anger. I think it's possible to forgive the person, as in not hold anything against him, yet not trust him anymore and not give him any other opportunities to hurt you. Posted by Sunflower on 11/07/06 at 06:57 PM i often have asked myself the question about someone who gets caught in the act and apologizes/asks forgiveness - are they for real or just sorry they got caught? and now, what is my response supposed to be? i know in my head that Jesus says forgive 70x7...in other words, don't stop forgiving. but living that out in reality when emotion and relationships are involved... much more difficult. i appreciate this post and the ensuing comments. so many of these answers have really helped me in thinking through this. thank you. Posted by joshua on 11/07/06 at 07:35 PM Well, I'm not sure I have much to add here, I think we're all on the same theological page. Katy, as you know, this is an issue I've personally been dealing with over ...geez..has it been a month? Anyway, I do believe God desires us to be Christ-like in all we do, therefore we forgive, no matter the sin. I can't find it in scripture where God says, "Forgive and Forget." Maybe it's there. I do believe forgiving is more for our sake than for the sake of the forgiven. Why carry that burden of anger? The word faith is really translated poorly from the original biblical writings...it really does...at least to me...translate closer to "trust." So do I forgive and trust...in God...to work out the rest. Yes, I do that all time, most willingly. Forgive and forget...and I'd be forgetting God. I have to let God work in His time, not in mine. Michael 1 of 37 or something :) Posted by Michael Main on 11/07/06 at 09:30 PM I could forgive someone for hitting me with their truck but I won't stand in front of the truck again. Posted by Sabine on 11/07/06 at 10:18 PM Wow Katy, You sure said something sweet about me on Lisa's blog. Thanks!!!! I love Mary's comment. (Relevant Girl) That particular issue is what I've struggled with the most. Thank God I'm learning that forgiveness does not mean you have to give the offender full re-entrance to your heart when they continue to wound it. But--continued forgiveness is the only way to survive. Even when the other person sees no need to change and repeatedly hurts you, you're only hurting yourself to hang onto the pain and anger. In this particular situation with Haggard, I'm really grieving for the man. I have no doubt but that what he did was NOT something he wanted to do. Sin is like that. It pulls at us. In our heart we don't want to do it. In our mind we know it is wrong and don't want to do it. But sometimes we lose. (even Paul struggled with this, see Romans 6) I have a friend who had similar struggles. His wife stuck it out with him while he got a lot of help with his addictions and a lot of healing from the wounds of his past. He is now a wonderful husband and father. I'm so impressed with both of them and the way they fought for healing and love through a lot of incredible pain. I'm glad his wife believed him when he said he was sorry. I'm glad she forgave him and helped him become the man he is today. (She is also a much stronger/beautiful woman now. Grew a lot through the pain.) I'm not saying every time we sin we are truly repentant, nor am I saying every wife has to stick with a husband even when they are unfaithful. I think there is a difference between a selfish desire to hold onto bad behavior and the person who blows it even as he/she wishes he/she didn't. Posted by Paula on 11/08/06 at 07:50 PM Lots of great comments here. I agree that we forgive regardless of the other person's attitude or confession. If for no other reason, we do this in obedience to God's command. Of course He commands it for good reasons. It not only rids our own souls of the festering poison of bitterness, but I also believe it releases the power of God to work in the other person's life. One time in my life I simply had no power to forgive. I wanted to, but hate and anger suffocated me. I begged God to help me forgive. One day I was explaining God's sovereignty to my daughter and I realized I was speaking to myself as well. That was the beginning of healing and forgiveness, and I knew it was real when I could think of the person I'd struggled to forgive and feel no hatred or anger or blame. Thank God, forgiveness has nothing to do with the worthiness of the one forgiven. If it did, we'd all be going to hell. Posted by Jeanne Damoff on 11/09/06 at 03:29 AM You are all insightful and inspirational. Thank you! I am actually much better at forgiving than asking for forgiveness. I am quick to apologize, but I always hesitate to ask forgiveness of someone if I'm pretty sure tomorrow, I may commit the same offense. It seems like an insult to the other person's intelligence or something. Obviously, I need some work in this area. I commit plenty of sins, so no doubt will have many occasions to practice these skills. Sheesh. Love you guys!!! Posted by Katy on 11/10/06 at 08:18 PM Well, this is an issue I have been dealing with for over 20 years. And I have been doing a lot of forgiving for the past 18 of those years. The problem is - you don't forgive once and it's over. Repercussions of a sin against you may continue for a lifetime. Every time I remember that my life is not what it was meant to have been, I have to forgive all over again. Having said that, restitution would go a long ways with getting me past this stage. Posted by alison on 11/17/06 at 11:25 PM Page 1 of 1 pages Commenting is not available in this weblog entry. Next entry: Mom's The Word Previous entry: Can Someone Please Adjust Her Meds? << Back to main


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Pent Up Theology

Personal blog of christian
writer & fallible mom
Katy McKenna Raymond
in Kansas City, Missouri